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FC/GW Plague   [10]

Veroscis    Lv.  8
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    https://bs.visualshower.com/forum_en/1497875
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    TL;DR: 4* Tanks and healers are OP (just git gud noob me)

    For those that want a little more detail, continue reading. Over the last couple years, we've been introduced to a plethora of 4* hunters, All with pretty cool abilities to throw in the hunter pot. That said, some of those hunters, while cool, have also caused PvP to be extremely one sided to a specific type build and formation in FC/GW.

    Late 2019 (or early 2020 i forget the exact date) I sent a suggestion over to VS about possibly extending the time on FC/GW and how it may help balance things given how things were. To my surprise, not too long after making that suggestion they increased the time in FC, (I'm assuming without a doubt a lot of you in the community also suggested this to them). That said, it helped a lot in regards to not running out of time while barely denting the opposition; still occasionally you run into a composition that is just for a lack of a better word I can think of, impossible. Especially in GW where it's 4v4. Most, if not all of these impossible walls consist of around the same build. The 2 most mandatory being Leon with Celine (and more recently Clara and or Lottery Mouse - which is just silly) as far as healing goes, followed by usually Anemone, and then add 1 or 2 of a high sustain/cc tank available (i.e. Harvey, Kamala, Lawrence) and you basically have an unwavering titanium steel wall.

    "Sounds like they're doing what they're supposed to do 'tank' and you just need to get good," someone is likely to say, but my argument to that is this, if I play my cards right, our power matchup is fairly 1:1 (give or take a bit) and rock, paper, scissors is pretty straight forward (with a little bit of guess work), I should be able to come close to a victory in a defeat, am i wrong? Because as the case I provided to VS on my suggestion to them. it's not so much tanks doing their job, or healers doing their job; it's passive attributes that these characters have that essentially make most and yes i mean MOST damage based hunters seem like fluff. What passive attributes someone may wonder? Things like team wide passive healing (Leon), Extra CP regen (Celine), consistent self healing (Kamala) and the like, all while being able to stun/disarm opponents to not only waste time but to actually deal almost toe to toe damage as the opposing damage based hunter that also happens to be a counter element. it's so unreal how much passive sustain is available in certain matchups that even the sudden death bonus doesn't help; which if anything makes it worse for you. "Well have you considered deep wounds?" this debuff gets removed like nothing. Some of the characters I mentioned above clear all negative effects, whether from the tank themselves or the healer. you honest best bet is having at least 2000+ power over some of these compositions.

    I'm sure this is partly why VC went a step back on their word about this awakening feature, as we now have Genovia even beefier against tank builds, but she honestly can only do so much before she has to be eventually healed or swapped out (or force swapped take your pick). that's all from me for now, flame away at how i need to git gud below, I've said my piece.
    • AIpha 2021.04.11 18:16
      Nice pitch
    • Joshiesaurus 2021.04.11 20:40
      In FC every team has a counter. As long as you have a team with a strongly built offense and healers/bombers with good synergy then you could best those 4* teams pretty easily. The only broken defenders are awakened Captain and Gerald, but even together they fall in FC to the old tactics alot of us used in the past (Windblade, Geranium, Alia, Lottery Mouse, Selene). While awakening introduced stupidly OP hunters FC is quite Doable, even as a F2P, I usually kill teams with awakened hunters without using my own in FC. Needless to say, if your having trouble in FC then just ask another old player who's competitive, they pretty much know every counter and teams that can help out.

      However I agree with the blitz thing somewhat. There are some of us old veteran F2P that can take on multiple Celine + Leon while paired with the old 4 star tanks, in fact I used to kill entire walls of Anemone teams, most of which were with with another defender and Celine + Leon. Once again you just need to know your counters and build offensive hunters with max level equipment, which is an essential in FC anyway. The only broken ones there are Captain, Gerald and Vincent when paired with those. Like seriously, a Gerald with 16k HP, wtf VS?! Captains a nuisance with those two but I've managed to take multiple of him before so he's not the worst thing ever. And Vincent as we alreadly know is terribly broken with his skill set. They really need to rebalance Gerald, as he's the only tank that is terribly broken in blitz, but it does get more people to work together to take a bunch of him down which is the point of Blitz.

      Overall, the 4 star tanks and healers aren't that broken, it's some of the awakened hunters like Gerald that are. You really just need to know the counters for every team and jewel hunters correctly. And ya ya, this is mainly saying 'git gud', but for the most of this post that is quite literally the answer.
    • Joshiesaurus 2021.04.11 20:51
      Some of the counter for the 4 stars were:

      Lawerence: Twins Crit team melted her, Bella destoryed her
      Harley: any 4 star electric hunter with a good team destoryed him, Bella also
      Anemone: windy bleed team mentioned above beat her, Bella (both versions), Twins Crit team. Imo in the end game she's the easiest 4 star to take on
      Erise: Mary, Twins
      Monica: Mary, Twins
      Kamala: Bella, Windy, especially. She has low defenses and does very little damage, long as you have someone who can remove negative effects she isn't that troublesome.
      Junia: Bella, windy, Katrina, Santa Mary or Twins if you have Themis.

      Needless to say none of those guys are that broken. As long as you can deal with them you can typically deal with the healers just fine as well.
    • Veroscis 2021.04.12 05:13
      by saying "not that broken," you're still acknowledging that they are broken, furthering my point. That is unless you meant something else?
    • Joshiesaurus 2021.04.12 13:59
      I meant to say "not broken", that was a typo and I make quite a few of those. And I also kind of rushed my last answer so here's a better explanation of my take of all this. And quite a few older players would definitely agree with me on some points here.

      When some of them first came out, sure, they might've been a bitch but certainly not all of them. However with power creep over time and the FC battle time being moved from 75 secs to 90 all defenses became a joke in the high rankings. The only one that has anything broken in their skill set at all imo is OG Lawrence with the stun all + remove beneficial effects, however without that she'd be a joke of a defender like Harley is. I'll give my stance on all the defenders and healers down below but ever since that FC time duration change all pure 4* teams are a joke. Often times they get finished before SD or just going into it.

      Harley: a joke, he's a pure staller but fails at that against some, and his event version is easier despite having stun because if all the strong fire hunters around

      Erise: high DRB and stun immunity which is bypassed by Critcal damage hunters easily, they don't care about that stuff or her ability to lower their attack and defense since they alreadly do high damage to her. She's not that great these days.

      Anemone: probably the weakest of them all despite what people think. She's just raw defense, her force swap is easily dealt with, and her chance of even healing is small. She's weak against critcal hunters, bleed hunters and Estelle. Hell, even some of the three stars can kill her, I used to kill her with Chichi in the past and she's both a 3 star and at a disadvantage element wise

      Junia: hardest of the 4 stars imo but easily dealt with by Bella or Windy in a proper set up, Katrina absolutely destroys her and so does Santa Mary. Critical hunters as well if you bring Themis. The only thing that makes her hard is her Critical immunity. Go around that and she's not that big a problem like Anemone since she has no permanent debuffs or buffs.

      Monica: was so weak in the past she had to be buffed soon after releasing. She's just a counter to hunters with higher speeds. And even with her passive decrease to the opponents critcal damage the critical hunters like the twins still eat her up.

      Lawrence: even with that annoying stun all she still has low defenses, lower her DRB and just nuke her with skills and she'll die easily. Probably the second most annoying defender

      Kamala: low defenses for a defender, she just weakens her opponent so you're meant to bring someone to remove her debuffs... That's literally her whole gimmick. As for her healing she's still killed off easily by Bella and windy who weaken her healing while facing her, and electric critcal hunters melt through her HP.

      Celine: her healing isn't great, only good in an emergency. Only thing good about her is her defense increase and passive rage generation.

      Teresa: stun immunity is somewhat useful but her attack down is easy to deal with. Her healing is also easy to weaken.

      Sofia: her passive is only good paired with others in an offense team. In defense she sucks. Her healing isn't great either. Her 4th is annoying but only that.

      Clara: her healing also sucks and can be completely shut down easily, as well as her buffs. Her passive is her only good use and even then she is countered directly by just Selene. Hell, her stun is easy to deal with in alot of teams anyway.

      Alia: she's more of an offensive healer then a defensive one, but she's one of the three 4 stars that will always remove negative effects from their target (or grant them immunity from them for 4 secs in her case) unless you block her. Her passive isn't the greatest compared to others, even if her 4th is annoying.

      Westfield: good for both offense and defense. In defense his passive and tanking abilities make him one of the most annoying ones to deal with, on top of his ability to remove negative effects, but he has lower healing than others and his buffs/debuffs aren't the hardest thing to deal with.

      Leon: definitely the hardest of them as he both removes negative effects and has the highest healing of all the healers when comparing just their normal skills. Despite his annoying skill set even he has become weak in FC, he's only good in Blitz. His summer version is alot harder in FC.

      Overall, the only 'hard' defenders are Junia, Lawrence and Kamala… and for two of those you don't even need healers that remove negative effects. Only need it for the one. Healer wise none of them are really that hard to deal with in the end game. Sure some are more annoying than others but that's about it.

      But I have to ask you this question: "What is it you exactly want changed?" Sure you gave a lot of issues you think are a problem but never gave a solution for ANY of it.

      Do you want the permanent debuffs some of them have to go away? Well if that's the case then the tanks with them will never be able to do their job since has I said before they alreadly get shredded by alot of the offensive hunters, those annoying debuffs and buffs they have are the only thing that make them any sort of challenge. Without them they'd always fail to be able to tank and the balance would be even more broken then right now since defenders would become even easier to deal with. Just look at most of the three stars. Kain can't tank much, even if he had the stats of a 4 Star he'd get destroyed because his skillset still sucks for example. And that's true for pretty much every none 4 star, and always has been.

      Do you want negative effect removal gone? That'd break everything completely. One of the purposes of it is to remove bleed so the healer can actually heal. Remove that completely and windblade and Bella will massacre everything since they apply bleeding damage to the enemy every second they face them, a healer would never be able to heal correctly resulting in every defense team becoming an even bigger joke. And how would it be fair if you can just apply permanent bleed to everyone without there being a possible way to remove it? This goes for offense, defense and bomber hunters.

      And as for the enemy team being able to stack passives, so can you by throwing in a bunch of supports / bombers on your attack team. This entire game revolves around team building, you can't just expect pure element advantage to give you the win every time. You need to strategize what your doing and build your frontline hunters to maximum equipment, because that's what everyone does with their defenders to actually make them able to do anything.

      If they changed all the defenders and healers in either of the two ways I mentioned above they'd have to rebalance the entire game and it would not be fun nor a challenge anymore. The only thing that's broken is hunter awakening but that is a WAY different topic then what you're talking about.

      All your saying is that something needs to change, but not WHAT exactly needs to change or HOW to do that. And on top of that all your complaints can be disproved by any older player since like I said, any of these 'broken tanks / healers' aren't actually.

      Look, I'm trying to be Neutral here, don't think I'm trying to defend anyone, like VS. I have my problems with them which is made extremely clear by looking at my past posts in the forum. I'm just trying to tell you that all of the 4 Star defenders and healers aren't broken, and that you just need to learn to deal with them. I can agree with what you say if you swapped 4 Star defenders for awakened defenders but that's the only way.
    • Amadeus813 2021.04.13 01:59
      Amen to that. But you forgot one hunter, Sienna. She is able to effectively to care of Vincent, Junia, Leon, and Celine. She can stun, penetrate immunity, lower def. and sometimes lower DRB permanently. She has a very similar play style and effectiveness like Audrey. In sudden death she can one shot every ice healer, and can sometimes one shot an A3 Vincent and Genovia if her 4th happens.
    • Joshiesaurus 2021.04.13 03:42
      Tbf I never even mentioned that the awakened offense (besides Vincent and Genovia), nor did I mention many bombers. I agree with you about Sienna, I love using her too when i can since she's so powerful.

      As for the awakened offense and Sienna:

      Lapis kills almost every defender in this game easily besides Gerald and Monica, and Rebecca can kill Electric like it's nothing and probably do alot against fire. Balian is kinda meh in comparison but not bad at all. Then Sienna can just straight up murder ice hunters and healers.

      Once again: How are the 4 star defenders and healers broken? The offensive hunters, wether they're awakened or plain 4 star, are way more powerful than them.
    • Veroscis 2021.04.13 17:08
      the only thing i honestly want changed or honestly just tuned, are the passives on some characters, and in some cases, tone down the self healing on tanks. let themn have the damage, heck make them even tankier stat wise to make up for it, but let actual abilities be the reason some does a lot of damage/healing/damage reduction etc. not passives.
    • Joshiesaurus 2021.04.14 10:05
      Trimming down the passives and increasing their defenses wouldn't work. Look at anemone, she has really high defense and damage reduction for taking skills, and increased defenses against ice hunters yet I've alreadly said so many hunters can kill her. That alone should prove that they need both those passive skills and abilities to work.

      In the past in FC when 4 stars ruled the high ranks and not awakened hunters you only needed two different teams to beat everyone you saw. The first was a bleed team with Windblade, and the second was a critcal damage team with the Twins, Westfield and Audrey, along with two more bombers/supports of your choice. And in blitz both of those teams could take a Celine + Leon team combo in blitz if you knew what you were doing and built your offense up correctly.

      Once again, my point is that there's so many ways to counter all of those passives. They don't need a nerf, hell, some of them were so weak before they actually needed a buff. Lawerence needed more DRB because she was getting beaten easier than intended and was always beaten by Crit teams since they don't care about that or the rest of her passives, Erises passive got buffed multiple times for similar reasons and still beaten by Crit teams or Mary for the same reason. Harley got buffed because he was so weak and still is for a 4 star, Monica was straight up garbage when she came out and needed a big buff to help her out so you can't really nerf her. Kamala may be annoying but with her low defenses the only thing keeping her alive and stalling is her self healing and weakening effects. And I've alreadly said enough about anemone to say how underwhelming she is in the late game.

      Celines alreadly gotten nerfed and defense teams became a whole lot easier after that as well. Sofia and Teresa both suck since attack down is easy to counter. Clara's stun is easy to block with Selene or Teresa and her DRB increase is easy to counter with Selene or Teddy bomber, or just by using Crit teams since they don't care about DRB. Alias passive sucks on defense teams these days since ER is way to easy to lower, even if her healing is great. Leons isn't the worst thing in the world since it's just self healing for the frontline outside of Blitz, which is easy to counter with bleed or just straight up DPS, as for his blitz boost, it's annoying but not broken with just plain old 4 stars. Westfield's isn't the worst thing in alot of teams I've met. He's only that annoying passive wise with Lawerence but even then Crit teams or high armor penetration counter that easily.

      Only hunter I didn't mention is Junia, and only passive of hers I don't entirely agree with is how much her Critcal chance can raise but there's so many ways to fight her these days that hardly even matters now.

      As for the self healing, bleed will lower anemones self healing since it occurs before her negative effect immunity. She won't always heal fully. Junias in the same boat, bleed after her skill and it isn't a problem. Kamalas is weakened when facing windy and Bella like I've explained and all the healers with negative effect removal are shut down by appollons skill, there literally is a counter to them if you really need it but alot of us don't.

      All this to say... Theres ways to counter all those 4 star combinations your complaining about. You just need a proper team to counter the opponents. I mean, come on, this is an RPG for crying out loud. Learn how to build proper teams and jewels, and learn the strats everyone else uses and all those hunters in every possible combination look like complete jokes.

      And I hardly talked about the awakened hunters, who make all of the 4 star defender and healer combinations look even sillier. These days there isn't much of a reason to still struggle with them unless your a new to mid tier player. The answer to all your problems is unfortunately the one you don't want people to say. Sorry, but it's the truth.
    • papapou 2021.04.18 06:07
      Conclusion....if you play the game and put effort on it,you will learn a way to beat any team:)

      After many tryed,i have found a way to killed Vincent team and it became a running joke :))

      You have to work on equip and give proper jewel to your hunter as well...

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